Wassia Kamon built FP&A from the ground up at Intralot, a state lottery vendor behind the US Powerball lottery (as an insider she couldn’t play the lottery for nine years).
And Wassia knows something about winning against the odds.
She arrived in the US aged 17. As she points out “only 3% of people getting a CPA are black”.
Wassia says: “Growing up in the Ivory Coast I was not a minority. Coming to the US I had to learn what it was to be a minority.”
She started posting regularly on LinkedIn after “seeing that there’s nobody that looks like me that’s talking about finance. “I never had a black boss, I never reported to somebody that was black. So the fact that I’m in this role means that other people saw me for what I could bring to the table and hired me.”
Her rapid rise has seen her become a finance executive with roles as VP of Finance at Boehringer Ingelheim From there, she moved on to more FP&A-focused roles at Boehringer Ingelheim, a global pharmaceutical company, as finance business partner for different business units, to VP of Finance at Low Income Investment Fund (the company manages $2billion of investments). She was recently recognized as an up the 40 under 40 honoree by CPA Practive Advisor.
In this episode learn:
- Her approach to learning *on the go* in switching from accounting to FP&A
- The value of “starting where you are”
- How to make sure finance speaks the same language as the rest of the business
- Putting ongoing meetings ahead of an annual meeting when it comes to budget and other big ticket items
- Secrets to managing a team and getting the most out of colleagues
- Book recommendations to boost your FP&A career
- How being “overly confident” led to her biggest FP&A career blunder
- Her favorite Excel function that changed her life forever
- What’s better, chocolate or Cheetos?
Follow Wassia Kamon on LinkedIn
FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails.
Datarails is the financial planning and analysis platform that automates data consolidation, reporting and planning, while enabling finance teams to continue using their own Excel spreadsheets and financial models.
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For AFP FP&A Continuing Education credit please complete the course via the Earmark Ap, must pass the quiz with 80% accuracy and send the completed certificate to pbarnhust@thefpandaguy.com for issuance of 1 hour of credit toward your AFP FP&A Certification.
Paul Barnhurst:
Hello everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today, I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka, The FP&A Guy. And you are listening to FP&A Today. FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis and discuss some of the biggest stories and challenges in the world of FP&A. We’ll provide you with actionable advice about financial planning and analysis. This is going to be your go-to resource for everything FP&A. I’m thrilled to welcome today’s guest on the show, Wassia Kamon. Wassia, welcome to the show.
Wassia Kamon:
Thanks Paul. Happy to be here.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, super excited to have you. So let me give a little bit of Wassia’s background and then I’ll give her an opportunity to share a little bit more about herself. She comes to us from the Atlanta, Georgia area. She recently started a new job working as vice president and controller at a low income investment fund. She has her bachelor’s degree in accounting and then went on to earn her MBA. She’s very active in the accounting and finance community, serving as a member of IMA and AICPA. And then also in her spare time she’s a board member for a nonprofit called Hope. So Wassia, welcome to the show. Could you start by just maybe telling us a little bit about your background and how you ended up where you’re at today?
Wassia Kamon:
Sure. Thanks Paul. Super excited to be here. So at first I didn’t want to be an accountant. I wanted to be a statistician. And after taking my first course in college I was like, okay, statistics is not for me. I still like numbers and went into accounting. I interned in tax, then audit and I’ve been in corporate finance and accounting since then. So that’s where my background is. Yeah, that’s where I am today.
Paul Barnhurst:
So funny story, when I was a kid I thought I’d want to go into statistics. I really didn’t understand what statistics was, but I loved the statistician for sports, like reading box scores. And so that’s kind of what I equated to statistics as a kid. I remember taking my first statistics class in college. It’s like, yeah, there’s no way I’m majoring in statistics. I mean I enjoy some of the statistics stuff but I did a finance degree so I can relate to that. Oh, this sounds cool. Yeah, I mean not.
Wassia Kamon:
Oh no, all the cards, no no.
Paul Barnhurst:
So I can get that one. So you completed an internship in both tax and audit?
Wassia Kamon:
Yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
Can you talk a little bit about how that experience was interning in those areas?
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. So the tax internship was during my last year of college. So I did it for a full year. So I was able to see okay, this is how busy season is when you’re in tax and also how low season is. And definitely learned that tax wasn’t going to be for me because I mean listening to people explaining how boring CPEs and just the legislation part, I was like okay, I cannot do this. But I did learn great things for personal taxes, for myself, you know being on a W2 to having a business and deductions and all that stuff. So it was good personally on that level for personal finance. But on the tax side I was like, I’m not going to be a tax accountant. Then it was PWC with audit and I thought, okay, big four, I was all excited. I didn’t realize that people don’t like auditors. So I’m an extrovert. I go out, I’m like, hi, I’m here for selection. They’re like, what do you want? So didn’t go well. I knew I didn’t want to be an auditors, so that’s why I moved then into just corporate finance and accounting and that’s why I thrive from accounting. I did FP&A, I’m doing both. So it’s been great. But these internships definitely helped me learn what I did not want to do. Still good experiences, but it helped.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, that’s definitely a great opportunity in internship. It’s an opportunity not only to test the company and see if that’s a company you want to work for and them to test you to see if you’re the type of employee they want. But there’s also that opportunity to go, okay, is this the type of work I want to be doing? Especially a year long internship. And I can understand on the audit side I was an extrovert and like you said, everybody been like, oh, it’s the auditor. I got to deal with this person.
Wassia Kamon:
What do you want?
Paul Barnhurst:
And how quickly can I get rid of you?
Wassia Kamon:
Why you still here?
Paul Barnhurst:
I could see that, in making that switch toward accounting and growing from there. So speaking of that, I know after your internships in school, you started your career working for Intralot. You spent about nine years there. And you worked your way up from accountant to a corporate controller. So could maybe talk a little bit about that experience and what it was like going from individual contributor to more of a management role and how you managed to kind of thrive and develop over those years.
Wassia Kamon:
Oh wow. That was definitely the best part of my career. I will say Intralot was a lottery gaming provider. So it was a technology firm because we’re keeping all the software behind the Powerball games and things like that.
Paul Barnhurst:
Oh, so I should ask you for the numbers?
Wassia Kamon:
I couldn’t play the lottery for nine years because of that.
Paul Barnhurst:
Makes sense.
You didn’t miss much. Odds are you would’ve just wasted money.
Wassia Kamon:
I knew how it worked. That’s the thing. Cause we do all the probability behind the number of winners. So I knew that part. The 0.00. And so it was a manufacturing pro as well cause we’re making some of the vending machines you may see at the grocery store and then also service providers. So I got to, when I got there, I was billing for the government. I was learning how to do revenue recognition at the time. So it really allowed me to touch every single part of a P&L of a balance sheet, of a cash flow statement. And also the company was growing very fast. Like technology company, I joined was 200 by the time I left were over 500. So billing a lot of the processes and procedures and really when people ask me how did you stay, I was like, because I wanted to stay because if I feel like people quit easily today and so you’re not able to allow yourself to grow because part of growth is yes, you’re going to have a difficult boss, maybe they’ll leave, maybe someone else will be able to take you under their wings.
Maybe you’ll be able to shift to another department and learn some other things, be involved in other areas as well. But as long as you’re proactive in your growth, it was really keeping touch with other players in the company and able to grow on that level. So a lot of people took interest of me because I was still there and it helped. I learned a lot from other CPAs. So the VP of marketing at the time was a former CPA, the VP of business development was a former CPA. So, and I saw them in other roles. So that’s when I learned that accounting didn’t have to stay just in the accounting department, but they went from being accountant CPAs into marketing, into business strategy. And so that was a great experience from that standpoint.
Paul Barnhurst:
Something I’ve always said, and I’m not a CPA, I didn’t start an accounting background. I started in contracts and then did finance. But one of the things I always say is if you get the opportunity to do a rotation outside finance, there’s a lot of benefit that comes from learning the business and being in the business. I started in the business and switched to FP&A and it was extremely valuable for me. So I’m a big believer that there’s a lot of benefit in seeing both sides of it. You’re a better professional. If I went into FP&A again tomorrow corporate job, I know I’d be better for the experience of the last year. Seeing the sales, doing the marketing, doing the operations and scaling my own business. So I think that’s great that you were able to see that early on. Cause I don’t think a lot of people always realize that if, okay, if I go in accounting, I’m going to retire an accountant.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. Yes. It was great.
Paul Barnhurst:
Good. I appreciate that. The other thing I really like that you said is challenge yourself and not quit. That’s something we’re trying to teach my daughter is hey, you can’t just come out here laughing because you probably can relate a little bit. You’ve tried for five seconds, you don’t need to come ask us to answer it yet. You need to challenge yourself for a few minutes. Keep trying. No, I’m not going to go find the remote until you actually look for it or whatever it might be. And I think that’s something we need as a society. It’s not to say you stay in a bad environment or that people don’t quit, but I think there’s a challenge if you run at the first sign. Yes. Of a problem every time.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes, agreed. I think it’s a lot of resilience and I think society is moving more toward I want it now, I want it quick. If I don’t like it, okay, I’m leaving now. But we don’t take the time to, I love gardening. To actually sow your seed and go through the whole process to see the project that you have flourish and see that yes, I implemented this process in June, it took two years, but now here are the results. But if you just, you’re not there after three months, how are you able to demonstrate this kind of results?
Paul Barnhurst:
No, I’m aligned with you on that. I think there’s a lot that comes from challenging yourself and there’s different ways you can do that both inside and outside of work, but it’s really important that you push through with projects. So that, I’m glad you did that sounds like it was a great learning experience. And speaking of learning experiences, the one I want to ask you about is when you were at Intralot, you know helped build the FP&A function from the ground up. Obviously small company as they scaled they needed that. Talk a little bit about that experience. What was it like going from being the accounting person all of a sudden doing the FP&A and how did you go about that process?
Wassia Kamon:
So I had a CFO that was very helpful in the process. So she already knew, you know, what an FP&A function was and I did not. So she had to explain to me, okay, when you give the numbers, what do we do with them next? And so trying to better understand, okay, how do we move from, okay, we have X amount of dollars that came through expenses or from revenues, how do we present it for decision making? And so at budget I will just put, okay, these are the spreadsheets for the budget. So I took basically what was there the prior year and I tried to reproduce and then she was like, okay, how is it helpful? I’m like, I don’t know. So it was a process and the mindset, it’s really a change in mindset more than anything else. Going from accounting to FP&A, cause I understand the numbers, I know exactly which vendors, what the lines are made up, but how do we bridge that to business strategy and looking forward, to what are we going to see, so at first I found that projecting for expenses to me was easy cause I saw the bills.
Right. But now we get into revenue and I’m like scratching my head, we have to look at factors economics because it was dealing with the state. So it was definitely a great experience for me because that’s when also I learned more Excel skills because I had to. But also being able to build different scenarios and sensitivity analysis and all these other things. So it was first me understanding how to bridge and then hire people to come in. My first financial analyst is still there. And so trying to better understand, okay, this is what this person will do, this is how they’re going to add value. How am I going to introduce them to all the other departments to start that business partnering relationship and get it going. Oh yeah, it was very, very, very, it was very good. But yeah, learning on the go, that’s all I can say.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, no it sounds like definitely a lot of learning on the go. You shared the example there with the CFO or how is this useful. Okay, well I guess I have more work and more things to learn here. Speaking that learning process, what advice would you offer to somebody who wants to make that switch? They’ve done accounting, they’ve done that learning and they want to make the switch to FP&A any advice you’d offer them?
Wassia Kamon:
Oh gosh, a lot. My first one is always to connect with people that are in those positions you want. Okay. So if you want to be a finance director, there is LinkedIn, which is great, but whether it is association events, conferences, things like that, connect with people that are in that environment, that are in that business and start understanding what is the work, what does it mean to be in FP&A. So understanding from that perspective I think helps. Plus you get connections that can help you get a job. That’s the other thing too in networking. Two, definitely look into having your mentor if you can or sponsor and start where you are. Okay. Because I started FP&A, I didn’t go to another job to start FP&A, I started where I was. So if there is an FP&A department in your current company, try to connect with them so you can start where you are and you’ll be able to bridge the knowledge you already have in accounting with the finance.
So definitely look for opportunities where you are. So if you’re an accountant and you are dealing with fixed assets for example, or prepaids, what kind of analysis can you do where you are now that can help decision makers dealing better with the kind of numbers you see? So really start where you are is will be my third advice. So look for somebody in those desired role, find a mentor sponsor and start where you are. But sometime we think we have to have a certification or certain job or a certain company to actually move into FP&A when really you can start where you are, especially if you accounting.
Paul Barnhurst:
I love that, starting where you are. And I love the idea of network, find a mentor and you’ll start with the company you’re at. Find ways. And one of my favorite examples of that, I think it was episode five, we had a Cameron Janke on and he talked about how their company didn’t have FP&A and he just out of curiosity, started kind of tearing apart the P&L and figuring out what the forward looking look like. He was doing a lot of, some of the SCC stuff at the time based on public, I believe are getting ready to. And what happened is people from accounting started referring people to the business to ’em, ask questions. Oh Cameron knows that. Before you knew it he built their FP&A function and was VP of FP&A and grew his career. And it was from initiative and wanting to know that it happened. And so I think that that’s a great point there. There’s often more opportunity than you realize where you’re at. And it’s figuring out how do you take advantage of it. Great point there. So I know during your career it sounds like you’ve had a few different leadership roles. You’ve had the opportunity to oversee different functions, accounting, APAR, FP&A, kind of all the back office as well as FP&A of the accounting. Can you maybe talk a little bit about just your leadership style and working with these different groups and how do you go about managing the teams?
Wassia Kamon:
Two things, transparency and positivity. So I like transparency, with me honesty is the best policy. So I like to leave collaborative style, I like to include people. There is also a time to be directive when that needs come. But definitely making sure that I’m transparent because I want the team to be transparent. I don’t like the defeated mentality of, oh we cannot do this. No we can’t. We can’t. No, not accepting new technology because that’s something that’s a mindset I think as a profession we need to evolve from is embracing technology, embracing the fact that we have to be more involved with the business. That they have to understand what’s going on with us. So definitely from that perspective and with me, personal development is big. I want to make sure the people that work with me are able to do their best. And I’ve coached and mentored, I’ve kept in touch with so many. One recently actually got a CPA license. She was my former accounting manager. So I coach her for the whole process. This is how you need to study. This is what books you need to read. And so to see her now director of accounting is such a joy for me. But it’s understanding that beyond even the current duties of your team, that it can grow not just within the organization but just grow as human beings.
Paul Barnhurst:
I love how you said grow as human beings beyond the organization cause we’re managing people first. Not roles, not jobs. Yes, those are all important. And of course you have to take care of them, but people want to feel respected. They love when somebody’s positive and when it’s sincere positivity, there’s times when it’s positive kind of that fake. And I really like two other things you said in there that really resonate with me is one, kind of no attitude. Sometimes finance has the reputation. I’ve heard it referred to as CF-no. Right? Instead of CFO. No, you can’t spend that money. No, you can’t do this. And yeah, and we have times we have to say no. But you should also always follow that up with a why and an explanation. There needs to be that open dialogue. Just because we can’t do something doesn’t mean there isn’t another solution we can come to where the positivity comes in. And the second thing I really appreciated that you said is technology. Cause I’ve done a number of surveys on LinkedIn and most people say the reason they can’t meet the business’ needs, it’s almost always technology.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes
Paul Barnhurst:
And I’m ike, but how many of you don’t even use a 10th of what you could do in Excel? Not even talking about new tools. And we often need better technology, but I always like to think of it as more transformation. It’s more about a mindset than what tools you’re using. Not that you don’t need good tools. I mean obviously I talk about tools all the time, but you need a growth mindset. So that’s something I really appreciated there.
Wassia Kamon:
Thank you. Because I think sometimes when a lot of the tools are implemented, they’re sometimes implemented in a way that’s closed minded. You can see it because it’s hard to build upon it. It’s hard. You’re not even using the full capabilities that the tool have to offer. It’s like you’re paying for a Ferrari, you’re still driving at 35 like a Honda. You’re like, it’s like why are we doing this?
Paul Barnhurst:
Yes, I’ve seen one where we were driving it like a Yugo and they built it under the assumption that we should trust none of our employees.
Wassia Kamon:
Wow
Paul Barnhurst:
Someone told me that once, the person who was in charge of it at the time, they were no longer, they left the company pretty shortly after I got there. But, and I was just like, there were just things we were doing that were taking hours that I knew the tool could do in two minutes and it took forever for them to get it, open it up. And I’m like, why? This makes no sense. You’re making our job harder for no good reason.
And so yeah, you really need to think about how do I make the lives easier of everybody when you’re putting tools in place and how do we open up and take advantage? And then also, what do you really need? How often do we need a Ferrari? Not very often. I’m sure plenty of us would like one. I mean I’ll take one if someone wants to give me one, but I don’t need one. All righty. So when it comes to getting the most, you’ve talked a little bit about your leadership style, but as far as getting the most out of a team, really helping someone achieve their best, are there any secrets or tips you’d offer there to really help someone to excel?
Wassia Kamon:
I think start with care, genuine care. I’ve seen people step up and do things just because they knew I cared about them. Sometimes we use those words like, okay, I love you, I love you, for example. And you’re like, oh, okay. Right. Forgot your birthday. Is that really true? So I think it’s not just in the words, you have to walk your talk. You have to because people will see through it. We are all adults, there’s no kids. We have lives outside of work. So I think making sure that you actually care for your employees will make a big difference. A big difference I should say. So for me, start with caring. Once your team knows that you care, the way you approach projects to them will be different. For example, I have a team member who said, I want to become a controller one day.
That’s what I want to do. Knowing that I’ll make sure that the project I assigned to her will help her get to that level, have that experience. So now I’m aligning a department goal with her personal goal. Then she’s going to be more motivated because it’s not just busy to keep herself busy, but it’s something that’s aligned with a personal goal and the goal of the department. So she’s going to be more engaged. I don’t have to come up with other tools or tricks or things like that. Just the simple alignment between her personal goals and the department goals is really what’s going to take her performance the next level. Then you do it with the other team members and so on and so forth. Them understanding, okay, leadership is about collaboration, so I would like you to lead this project with this team and it’ll help you sharpen your skills and also help the department once we reach X, Y, Z. So kind of aligning those two to me is very important.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really like what you said there because so often managers look at that development, annual reviews, periodic meetings. It’s just a headache they have to do. I’ve been guilty of it where there’s times, all right, I got to come up with some kind of something to put in this. But really if you find out what they want to accomplish and you help make that part of the process, it becomes much more valuable to them because they’re achieving their goal and you’re achieving the company’s goal. If you’re able to align those correctly. So I think there’s a lot of value in what you said there and really obviously making sure they know you care, but helping them accomplish their goals in any way you can.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
So I like that. Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. So next question here. As a finance leader, obviously one of the most important things we have to have is good and great relationships with the business. How do you go about building a relationship with the business? What have you found helps you develop a good relationship so you can be that business partner, not just the person who sits in a spreadsheet all day as much fun as they are.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. So back when it wasn’t remote for me, it was going for lunch or having lunch with somebody. But now that sometimes
Paul Barnhurst:
We were a social butterfly, you’re not an extrovert, are you?
Wassia Kamon:
I think. Yeah. I’ve been dealing with being shy for so long. So yeah,
Paul Barnhurst:
That strikes me as you. Shy. Yes.
Wassia Kamon:
So for me it was going out for lunch, sitting in the cafeteria and going over, oh, what’s your day? I was doing those things. I didn’t know what business partnering was. So mind you, I was still in my accounting mode but I didn’t, didn’t know that I was building my business partnering skills, but just liking to go to the Chinese buffet with people. So that was kind of the early stages of building relationship to me. It start with again where you are and know that it’s an exchange. It’s the two way street, right? Because I think sometime we go, I at one way I want this from you. And we don’t realize that, okay, what are they getting? Okay, so me understanding your budget, how you work better, we’re going to get to a better budget. So making sure that you share also the context and, whenever they’re talking, understanding their language, the actual words they use.
Because sometimes we say revenue, they say sales, like we say customers, they say client, you have to speak the same language, understand the obstacles. And that’s when you start really understanding. So now like, okay, you understand what I’m saying? And we going somewhere, we are building something here for the business. And I think that’s what has helped me is having those conversations early on before budget times. Okay, I don’t like sending meeting requests. Okay, budget starts in September. I send it August 15 to talk to the business partner. No, it has to be an ongoing relationship throughout the year. So you don’t come out. Okay, the budget season is over. There they are again.
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Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, so you’re not look, okay, it’s September, here comes finance. All right, let’s see how quickly we can get rid of them now. Yeah, here’s the numbers you want. Okay, we’ll see you next September. Obviously that doesn’t help anyone. There are a couple things you said there that I like. One, making sure it’s a fair exchange or it’s a two-way exchange, not necessarily fair, but that you’re giving them value, not just taking from them. And I think that’s so critical. And with that, I really liked how you said make sure you’re speaking the same language. When they say sales, they mean sales. When you say revenue, they often think you mean sales, right? Because there’s a difference, especially in some businesses sales can be very different from revenue and some they’re virtually the same. And so it’s making sure they understand how that impacts things, how the business thinks about it and how do you bridge that gap so you can speak in their language.
And so they get why it’s important for them to understand some of those financial concepts and also for you to understand where they’re coming from. Cause I’ve definitely had those where you mean to tell me I got all this revenue, it’s not going to help us this year. Well they’re sales and unfortunately no. And here’s why. Well why did you guys told me to, well we did, but the way you structured this doesn’t work and here’s why. Or whatever the situation might be. But those type of things. So those are a couple things I really that stuck out to me that you said there. Thank you. And then the last one is just making sure it’s a year round that you’re always with them, that you’re really a partner. The way I look at it when I know somebody’s really succeed, that you’re really a finance business partner is when that leader doesn’t want to make any big decision without discussing it with finance.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes, yes. That’s a big one. Yes, for sure. That’s how you know that. Or when they say, oh, make sure so and so is CC’d on the email in case they may have something to say or what do they think? Let’s run about finance. It’s real. That’s really when that the relationship is working where they want to include you.
Paul Barnhurst:
Exactly. Versus can we get this done without talking to finance? How do we do an end run
Wassia Kamon:
The threshold?
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I could tell some stories about the threshold. We all could, I’m sure. But yes. So I know over the last year, no you haven’t done it as much recently with starting a new job, but you started sharing your voice more on LinkedIn maybe could you share what prompted you to start doing that and what have you learned from the experience?
Wassia Kamon:
Oh wow, so much. So I started out, so I took a personal branding course, I think August of 2020 during the pandemic we’re home half time. So I took this course and we’re talking about, yes, you know, have to build your personal brand and so on and so forth. That was 2020. I didn’t start posting until 2021 and that was because I needed to feel, I didn’t know how to be confident sharing my voice. And then what kind of pushed me is through my feed I didn’t see enough women or people of color. I was like, okay, there’s nobody that look like me that’s talking about finance. I know there is a lot of me in finance, so maybe I’ll talk to these people. And I decided to post from the perspective of the mentor, I wish I had, remember how I said a lot of things I learned as I went.
And so I started posting the things that I wish somebody told me because I had to do a lot of research or learned the hard way. That’s what prompted my post about the top accounting and finance certifications because I was clueless what I need to do. So somebody said to me, I was early twenties, do your CPA, bam. Wassia is doing a CPA. Do your CMA bam, Wassia is doing that. Cause I didn’t really have the framework. I was like, okay, let me try, why not? And so it’s really from that perspective, especially around soft skills because a lot of people said, I have bosses who told me, I know you can do the work, but I hired you for your communication skills. So it wasn’t Excel, it wasn’t that I could do this function or whatever is how I was able to bring people together to get things done.
So trying to share those type of things of I know you’re spending a lot of time on this or that, but realize that business acumen, there’s other skills beyond the traditional technical skills that you need if you want to attain certain roles in organizations. So it’s really from that perspective that I started posting and I learned so much in the process. I learned and I met so many great people like you, Nicolas [Boucher], who speaks French and I speak French with them. So it’s pretty cool. Sometimes we exchange messages in the chat in French and then we go start commenting in English into the world. So it’s just getting to know people from around the world. I’ve learned so much. You helped me a lot understanding how LinkedIn works and things like that. So it’s been a great side project for me. A lot of people ask me, what are you selling? What are you doing? I’m like, I’m just hanging out. Literally just hanging out here. So it’s been a great experience.
Paul Barnhurst:
No, that’s wonderful. I know we’ve talked a few times before and that’s how you ended up being on the podcast and we’ve collaborated and it’s been fun to see. I love seeing new people come in and share and that’s fun that yeah, I get like Nicolas, I get talking French with him and different things. I love that it shrinks the world. 50 years ago you couldn’t just easily ask a question of someone pretty much anywhere in the world and now you really can. It’s so much easier to go, oh hey, how are you dealing with this problem? Or what do you think about that now? I think that’s one of the biggest challenges I’ve heard many people face in FP&A. And that’s one of the reasons the things we wanted to bring with FP&A Today is to help discuss those types of challenges and the things and hopefully make the job a little easier for those to come behind us. Because yeah, like you said, I’m sure when you were trying to build out an FP&A function at Intralot, there are a lot of times that you had a great CFO but you would’ve loved to go to other people, be on LinkedIn and be like, how should I think about this? Any advice here?
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. Oh definitely. Because we go through the same thing. I will talk to somebody that’s in India or in Dubai and it looks like we work in the same building, the things they’re going through, the challenges with the team, it just feels like we are going through the same thing. So yeah, I do appreciate that we can be connected that way.
Paul Barnhurst:
And when you said that going through the same thing, why we can all relate to Dilbert, right? Because we’ve been through the same things and his comics, even though they’re the extremes, you read and go, yep, I remember that. That feels about right. So have a lot of fun with that. So here’s question I want to ask you. I know you like to read, I can see books behind you there. So this doesn’t have to necessarily be a finance book, but for our FP&A out there, is there any book you would recommend they read that kind of would help them with their career and why?
Wassia Kamon:
Okay. Finance related, I’ll say and numbers related, it is called the Data Story by Nancy Duarte
Paul Barnhurst:
Great Book. She has great stuff. I’ve read that book but I’ve read some of her stuff. She’s great.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. And how she explained how technical people can bring their message down or bring it differently to non-technical people and how they can make their presentations more effective. So I, it’s my number one when it comes to storytelling because I think it’s very important for us finance and accounting today. Can’t say enough about data stories. So great book. Great book. I’m glad you the work of Nancy as well. I’ll say on the leadership side, I’m more into Unstuck and unstoppable for women in leadership (Janine Brown) because we do face different things than males in leadership. So I really love that book by Janine Brown, unstuck and Unstoppable. On eadership in general. I like The Five Dysfunctions of a TeamBook by Patrick Lencioni. So especially for those going from individual contributor to now managers, understanding what it takes because you go from individual contributor to manager then to director, where you manage managers that have individual contributors. So that’s definitely a great book. One that I’m reading too. So that’s book number four. It’s the first 90 days. I love it. This is my second time going through it. But I think it takes you back to what it takes to start in a new role. How do you learn, establish yourself and building that foundation. And that’s something I recommend to anyone in any type of transition really. Whether it’s within the same company or from one level to the next is definitely some great things to keep in mind.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. And I’ve heard a few of those the first 90 days, but there’s something you said, and I didn’t have this in my list of questions, but I’m hoping you’ll be okay with this. I know as a woman and a woman of color in leadership, you’re a minority. It’s not the majority in the business world. Can you maybe share how that’s been and what can society do better to help people that sometimes feel like this, they may be in a minority or not feel as comfortable in situations? Cause I know you and I have talked a little bit about that and some of those challenges. So I’d love to just get your perspective of how as a society we can do better to support everybody, especially people that are on the outside sometimes as far as gender or race or whatever it might be.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes, that has been something that’s very personal to me. So I grew up in the Ivory coast on in West Africa. So I came to the US when I was 17. So I like to say growing up I was not a minority, I was a majority. Okay. And so coming here I had to learn what it was to be a minority. And so my perspective of certain aspects are very different because I learned that here. And so for example and I think there is a lot of progress compared to when I came originally, couple years ago.
Paul Barnhurst:
Last week. Yeah, I get that
Wassia Kamon:
Yeah, last week. But I’ll say there’s a lot of progress and here’s why I say that because I never had a black boss, I never reported to somebody that was black. So the fact that I’m in this role means that other people saw me for what I could bring to the table and hired me. So that’s where I see the progress because there is that willingness to look beyond what you look like to what you can actually bring to the table. And we spoke before it takes time. So me being in my role and having have been in two different VP roles, tells me that there is progress but it takes time. And so I think that there is already, that awareness is getting traction. Yes, we’re not seeing the numbers yet because I think there’s only 3% of people that are, 3% of CPAs are black in the US.
So I know the numbers are not there yet, but I think that there is progress that should be celebrated. And I think for the great bosses that took a chance of me, I think it’s about being understanding of the difference and showing up for support. Not having preconceived ideas of what you may think my needs are, but just asking like ask, is this okay? How do you feel about this? And knowing that you may need to support others and say, I noticed that you didn’t speak up in that meeting. Did you want to say something? Do you want me to create a space for you to speak at the end of the meeting? Or I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable, but making sure that you hear their voices regularly. If somebody shuts down or is not speaking up, something is going on. I read this study, I think it was Harvard, in Harvard Business Review where they said that when women is in, when are in the room, where they’re in minority, so there’s 10 people in the room, only three women, they are twice as less likely to speak up during that meeting just because they’re outnumbered.
So it’s why I said it’s making sure that everyone got a chance speak and when they do listen, not listen to go deeper or whatever, but just listen for the sake of listening. I think a lot of progress will come if we will just listen. And that’s what has helped me is having bosses that will listen to when I say I struggle with this or I need more help with that, that will just listen to listen. Not to judge, to give advice before they even know what’s going on. But just listening I think is very important.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I’m grateful for the progress we’ve made in society. And yes, look forward us to continuing to progress because all we want is a chance for everybody to be successful. Diversity makes us all better. Having people of color, of different race, of different orientation, different backgrounds, all of that diversity brought together so that we’re thinking and acting differently so we can come up with the best solutions. Cause the studies are clear that companies that are diverse perform better.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes, absolutely. I mean you look like your customer base sometimes it helps.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. No, there’s something to be said. I mean we’re a diverse society and you know, want to try to reflect that as much as you can. So thank you for that. And thank you for the book recommendations. I’m going to ask you to email those to me so I can put ’em in the show notes so everybody can look at those if they want. We’re coming up on the end of our time here. Just have a couple more questions for you. And this is one we like to ask a lot of our audience. Failure is something we all go through, it’s just part of life. I like to look at it as it’s a learning experience. So could you talk about a time you had a failure at work and what did you learn from the experience?
Wassia Kamon:
I’ll say, okay, so a company I worked for was going through a due diligence process and we were probably going to be bought out and my boss came in and asked for some type of analysis and I threw out a number and I’ll say was out of being overconfident.
The number was wrong, okay, like in millions wrong. So you can imagine how embarrassing it was for me, for my boss who took the hit. And it was a very ouch moment. So from that I created my own quote of don’t let overconfidence destroy what confidence built”.
Paul Barnhurst:
Love that quote. Thank you.
Wassia Kamon:
Because sometimes we, yeah, like, oh yeah, I got this, I can do this. No, you can’t go check. So at the end of the day, it’s a numbers work, so definitely double checking your work. You never get to a point where you’re too high enough or too much to the point where you don’t double check. So that was my ouch.
Paul Barnhurst:
No, it’s like the idea, if you’ve ever done any woodworking, measure twice, cut once.
Wassia Kamon:
Nice.
Paul Barnhurst:
So just go check. It’s not, yes, generally only going to take a minute. I mean there are times when you may be able to throw out the number, but it’s a general rule, it never hurts to say, Hey, here’s what I think it is, I’ll verify that and get back to you. So that way if you’re off instead of, oh I know it’s this, and then you go back and look and it’s like, oh
Wassia Kamon:
Snap. Nope,
Paul Barnhurst:
It was three times that. What was I thinking?
You, yeah, especially higher the stakes.
Wassia Kamon:
Oh yeah. Before
Paul Barnhurst:
You want to make sure you’re positive or you give yourself that. I’ll go back and check. Not just be confident like, oh I got this, I’m good because we’ve all been there and yes, usually when you get over confident you end up yes. Having that moment that we’ve all had. So next question here. This is when we’d like to ask everybody. So what is something unique about you that you can share with our audience? Something we wouldn’t find online? We know you speak French, so that’s one from Ivory Coast, but what else?
Wassia Kamon:
I don’t know. My two biggest weaknesses are Cheetos and chocolate.
Paul Barnhurst:
Is it Cheetos first or chocolate first?
Wassia Kamon:
Chocolate, yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thats what I figured. I had a check.
Wassia Kamon:
Chocolate. And I even have a joke that God made me chocolate for that reason. I’m born for chocolate. So when I see chocolate, I eat chocolate. I keep telling myself I’m born for this. I love chocolate in every form possible except with bacon. But yeah, you want to find
Paul Barnhurst:
That one except with bacon, is that what you said?
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. I went to a donut shop one day, they had a chocolate donut, with bacon on it. I’m like, no, I like bacon and chocolate, but I like them separate.
Paul Barnhurst:
I would tend to agree with you. They make sense. Separate, not together. Yeah, I’m not a chocolate person, but I would argue that yeah, they don’t go together, so thank you. I can buy that. All right, so now everybody’s favorite question. This one is coming. I know you’re excited to give me your answer. Favorite Excel formula, feature function. What’s the favorite thing about Excel
Wassia Kamon:
V Lookup? I know there is. I know
Paul Barnhurst:
I had, that’s what I was going to guess.
Wassia Kamon:
VLook up because graduating, using Excel, I did not like you graduate from school and you’re like clueless. That was me. That was me. And I was spending hours, hours going through one spreadsheet and the senior accountant was like, oh I see, are you still working? And I’m like, yes, it’s taking time. He came over, saw what I was doing. It was like, oh my goodness, you’re going to spend the whole week on this. You’re doing that way. And he came over, he did a low line with a GL code and then he did a V lookup and I was like, oh my God, this is life. I felt so smart. So great. So since then, even though I used pivot table, another function V lookup is still yes, it’s dear to my heart.
Paul Barnhurst:
It was that moment when you realized I can have my life back.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes. Yeah. Hundreds of rows to find one thing. Oh gosh, yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. It reminds me of a quote I love that I saw on LinkedIn by Mark Proctor who’s going to be on a future episode here. He said, teach a man Excel and you give him a job for life.
Teach someone how to automate in excel and you give them a life.
Wassia Kamon:
Oh gosh, yes. So well said. I need that. Hang it on the wall. This is so well said.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yes. And I just love that idea cause there’s a lot of truth to it, so
Wassia Kamon:
Definitely.
Paul Barnhurst:
So next question we like to ask here is what advice would you offer to someone who’s starting their career today in FP&A? So they’re just starting fresh out of college, they want to work in FP&A. If you could give them one piece of advice, what would it be?
Wassia Kamon:
Take your time. It will be definitely pace yourself. Cause I think there is so much information out there, there is so much of what should you do not do that he can get overwhelming. And I get a lot of people in my inbox, what should I do here? What should I do there? And I’m like, take your time. You are on the right track. I feel like you’re trying to know everything in that first year in your role. But I think definitely pacing yourself first, setting reasonable goals for your career, to me is number one.
Paul Barnhurst:
I think that’s some great advice there. Pacing yourself, avoid that burnout cause it’s easy to do.
Wassia Kamon:
Yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
And then the last question we have before we let you go, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, what’s the best way to reach out to you?
Wassia Kamon:
LinkedIn and email.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right, great. Yes, I figured you’d probably say LinkedIn. I know you are on there a fair amount and still post from time to time. So I just want to personally thank you for being on the show. I really enjoyed it. I’m glad we were able to make this work. I know we’ve had to reschedule a couple times. So thank you Wassia, for being on the show and thanks for carving out some time for us.
Wassia Kamon:
Thanks Paul. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, no, my pleasure. I’ve to totally enjoyed it.
Wassia Kamon:
Thank you. Same here.
