“The male prison population in the United States is about 15% psychopaths. So if, if you’re a warden and you work all day with prisoners, and then at the end of the day you go to some award ceremony honoring local CEOs, you’re probably interacting with a similar number of psychopaths at each event.” Jack Mccullough – President of CFO Leadership Council and 26-time CFO.
Jack McCullough’s background gives him an unprecedented perspective on financial leadership. Having started hist career at Big Four audit firm KPMG, he subsequently served as a CFO for 26 different companies, often in a part-time or interim role, working with about 35 CEOs. In his words “several geniuses, a handful of lunatics, and two or three who were both. But I learned from each person and became a more effective leader.”
In this episode Jack McCullough reveals:
- How to work with Psychopath CEOs
- Mental health and finance and overcoming difficult leaders
- The importance of personal brand-building for CFOs and FP&A analysts
- How Jack invented the phrase “CF-No” in 1984
- Why FP&A professionals and CFOs need to build their brand today
- The things that CFOs most want from their FP&A leaders
- His most strategic finance moment – or how COVID transformed his business
- Mentoring in finance and the power of being mentored by Gen Z talent
- Why he headlines his finance conferences with Guns n’ Roses and AC DC
- Who would he most like to meet
- His most manual processes ever
- The surprising two traits that CFOs must achieve today to have any chance of success
- How to become a CFO
Episode Links
Books by Jack McCullough:
The Psychopathic CEO: An Executive Survival Guide: Jack McCullough
Secrets of Rockstar CFOs: Jack McCullough
Follow Jack McCullough on Linkedin
Follow Paul Barnhurst on LinkedIn
Paul Barnhurst:
Hello everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today , I am your host, Paul Barnard, a k a, the FP&A guy FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis. Today we are thrilled to have Jack McCullough join us. Jack, thanks for being on the show.
Jack McCullough:
Oh, hey, thanks for inviting me. Been looking forward to this for a while. So sounds like a fun opportunity and love to connect with your audience.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, we’re really excited to have you. So let me just start by just mentioning a few things about Jackie comes to us from the Boston, Massachusetts area. Jack earned a bachelor’s in accounting from Suffolk University and his MBA from MIT, he has held the CFO position at 26 companies. That’s a lot I might add. That’s, I wanna talk a little bit about that. And he’s the founder of the CFO Leadership Council. Jack is also a sought after speaker, a thought leader. He, you know, works with CFOs around the globe and he has his own bobblehead. Tell me about the Bobblehead. Yeah,
Jack McCullough:
<laugh>. I, why didn’t ask a lot of people ask if I made it myself. You know, what kind of I,
Paul Barnhurst:
I thought of asking that, you know, did you have that made so you could show off your head
Jack McCullough:
Yes, that what kind of a pompous fool do you take me for? But, uh, yeah. So here’s my bobblehead, which I later found out is on top of one of the Incredibles bodies. Uh, this was a gift from my prior employer, Pete Marick Mitchell. I’m sorry, KPMG Pete Marick and Mitchell in the eighties. Where the hell did that come from? <laugh>. And, uh, my last day they gave me a Bobblehead doll with an Avengers with a, um, with a superhero bottle. It’s not the Avengers, it’s someone else.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah.
Jack McCullough:
The Incredibles. So, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, my, my knowledge of pop culture will continue to impress you. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. So that’s what I’ve told, I’ve, uh, recognized so far. So I’ll make sure I ask lots of pop culture questions. Not, not, you know,
Jack McCullough:
If it’s before 1986, I can do pretty well. So
Paul Barnhurst:
I could get some before 86. I was, I was 10 then, so I can get a list.
Jack McCullough:
You, I think it works. So yeah, we, there’s some overlap, so,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, exactly. We got a few years in there to discuss. All right. Well, how about we start with just having you tell us a little bit about your background. You know, tell our audience how you ended up where you’re at today, and a little bit of your journey.
Jack McCullough:
Sure. I’m a, a lifetime New England resident, and after undergraduate, I started my career with, what was Pete Marick and Mitchell at the time. Young people will know it as KPMG, but it’s the same firm. And I worked there three years, became a CPA, worked with a series of companies, uh, in financial leadership type of roles, controllers, CFOs, VPs of finance along the way. I got my master’s degree from MIT Sloan. And the motivation behind that was I wanted to be, you know, more than just a numbers person. I wanted to be more of a strategic thinker. And I just thought getting an MBA would sort of broaden my mind and expand my skillset a little bit. So, as you mentioned, I ended up being, um, working as a CF O or equivalent to 26 different companies. And along the way, I started an organization that at the time was called the CFO Roundtable. It’s since been renamed the C F O Leadership Council, and I’ve been working here full-time for about six years. Although the, the group itself, which started kind of as a hobby, is, is about 18 years old. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Thanks for that background. Appreciate it. And we’ll get into a few of those things here in a minute. But first I just wanna talk a little bit about the books you’ve written. You’ve written two books, if I have it right. We got the Secrets of a Rockstar, CFO, which I believe is behind you there. And just to the right you have the psychopath CFO, it’s the second one you’ve written. That’s correct. So there’s something I found fascinating in that one on the side, so I wanna go there for a minute. I noticed on your side it mentioned that 15% of America’s CEOs are psychopaths. Yeah. So I have two questions to this. We’ll start with the first one. How did you come up with that number? Like, where’s the data that study, or how do they decide that 15% of CEOs are psychopaths? And I will add, I’ve met a few, so I can, I can say that,
Jack McCullough:
Well, you, you know, you, you do the math if you’ve, um, you know, it means 85% of CEOs or not, which sounds pretty good, but, you know, if you work for three CEOs, if you do the math 50 50, that one of them is a psychopath, right? But it started out, there was a book called, um, snakes and Suits. It was the first book that tried to look at psychopathy in the executive suite. Generally, it wasn’t specific to CEOs, it was the entire C-suite. And, um, they put the number at somewhere around 2%, which years later might be a little bit low. But that’s what they, they came with. And, you know, they, it was groundbreaking in its time. But what happens is, the further you go up the C-suite, the high of the psychopathy rate is, and there have been all sorts of studies that suggest that it’s somewhere between 12 and 18%. I just use 15% in case I’m asked to do mathematics in my head, I can do that pretty quickly, . So 14% would be harder to work with. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Wow. That’s, that is very interesting. I would’ve never thought it’s that high.
Jack McCullough:
And just, I, I wanna give you just a little perspective on that. Yes, please. So, the male prison population in the United States is about 15% psychopaths. So if, if you’re a warden and you work all day with prisoners, and then at the end of the day you go to some award ceremony honoring local CEOs, you’re probably interacting with a similar number of psychopaths at each event. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Just one’s in jail and one’s not. Is that what you’re saying?
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. Yeah. They’re really smart ones become CEOs. So, uh, but, uh, you know, if you’re born poor and you’re not really smart and you’re a psychopath, you know, life is gonna be pretty hard for you for the most part. But, you know, if you’re born middle class or, or whatever, and you know, you, you’re, you’re born with some gifts and a lot of psychopathic CEOs have tremendous gifts, uh, you know, you can carve out a very lucrative career path for yourself. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Interesting. I’m, I’m gonna have to read the book now. You’ve really, uh, peaked my interest. I haven’t had a chance. I, you know, I learned about it earlier this week and it’s now been added to my list. Okay, great. Speaking of the book, you talk, I think in the book you talk a little bit about how you survive a company led by a, a psychopath. So maybe talk a little bit about that and just the book in general.
Jack McCullough:
Sure. Well, the first question, and I, I don’t wanna challenge the premise, Paul, but you know, part of it is I, I ask people, and people have come to me and, you know, believe that they’re working for psychopath, and, you know, I’m not a medical person, but what they described Sure. They’re, you know, they’re probably right. And, um, the first question you ask yourself, you know, do you want to survive working in a psychopath for a psychopath? Because, you know, we do live in a time, even though the economy’s uncertain, there are a lot of jobs out there. So I understand, you know, you might be loyal. You don’t wanna leave your team. You might like your investors, maybe the company’s, you know, very, um, you know, it, it’s, it’s a lucrative, you’re gonna go public in a year, whatever it might be, but you really wanna ask yourself, do you want to work for psychopath because it can ruin your life, you know?
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you, uh, I’ve known, you know, people there, uh, you know, they end up legal action and they spend, you know, tens of thousand dollars in legal bills. And they also end up, you know, they meeting with an analyst. So, you know, every Thursday at two o’clock, they’ve got a meeting with an analyst because of the, the damage and the number that the psychopath did on ’em. So ask yourself, is it really worth it? And then I, I guess to your question, a a lot of people say, yes it is. The best thing you can do is the thing about psychopaths is in their mind, everything is about them. Everything is to serve them. So think about when you’re communicating with them, frame everything in their selfish interests and explain to them why their behavior or what they’re doing is not acceptable from their standpoint.
Um, they’re not nice all the time, but they’re not irrational either. And if you can make them understand, you know, uh, like, like one guy I worked with, he would fire really good engineers at random. Just he was sending a message, you know, God only knows what message the clown thought he was sending. But, you know, explain him, you know, he probably gets a power trip and he enjoys doing it, but explain to him, this is wrong, and this is why you fire three really good engineers. All the other good engineers are going to leave because they have a lot of opportunities. The company’s not gonna succeed. You’re not gonna get as rich as you would like to get from this opportunity. Perhaps not quite that black and white, but you get the point, probably. Yep. So, you know, frame it in, why it’s in their best interest to do something. And you can often get, you know, a desirable and reasonable outcome
Paul Barnhurst:
That, that makes sense to me of framing it that way. And when you mention, you know, they’re often very self-interested. I work for a company where, like I said, I’m pretty sure we had a psychopath, CEO. Fortunately, I wasn’t at the level where I had to be in any meetings with him. I just heard all the horror stories, <laugh>, you know, and the one that comes to mind that, not horror story, but we were all volunteers. We couldn’t be called employees. I’m like, no, no. You pay us a paycheck. I’m not your volunteer. Whether you wanna call me that in the company guidebook or not.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. That’s kind of a weird thing. Did you ever find out what the thinking was on that? I mean, that’s kind of strange.
Paul Barnhurst:
I I did not, I think you looked at it like it was basically a privilege to work for me. So you’re volunteer, you can leave whenever you want.
Jack McCullough:
Oh, okay. Uh, that reminds me, <laugh> of, actually, I, I had a waiter, this is a few years ago now, but, uh, you know, I was ordering the food and, uh, he said, choice of vegetables. And I said, okay, what, what’s the choice? And he said, broccoli. And I’m like, broccoli, and what else? And he said, well, the choice is if you wanted or not.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah.
Jack McCullough:
I, I guess I was given a choice on the vegetable. Right. And you, and you were voluntarily working there. You weren’t an indentured servant or something like that.
Paul Barnhurst:
So, exactly. We could quit at any time. So technically, I guess I’m a volunteer. I mean, you pay me a paycheck, so I could dispute that, but Yeah. Yeah. And there are, I could go on a long list of things like that, that
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, you won’t win that argument. You’ll win the argument against a rational person, but not against the person who would take that to begin with. You’re not gonna persuade them.
Paul Barnhurst:
E Exactly. So there’s no, there’s no use. And I like your first point, and I think that’s one everybody should ask themselves. First question is, do you wanna be working for one? And I would think, you know, unless the benefits, you know, like you said, that equity or something really outweighs the damage, I would think in most cases the answer should be no. But I get, can I ask,
Jack McCullough:
Ask a question though,
Paul Barnhurst:
Paul? Yeah, of course. Because
Jack McCullough:
I asked this when I present on, and it’s interesting. I’d love to get your answer. Yeah. Um, Steve Jobs is widely thought to have been a psychopath. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, would you work for him?
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, from what I’ve seen, I would’ve probably said no. Yeah. The way of how I’ve heard he’s treated people, I don’t know that I’d wanna work for him.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. It’s, uh, and it’s an individual question I would for a year, because I, I think of what I would learn working for the greatest business mind of our generation. Right. So I would, that’s
Paul Barnhurst:
A good
Jack McCullough:
Point. I would for a year like Elon Musk, who’s not a psychopath, but he has problematic behaviors. I’d work for him too, given the opportunity, but only, you know, for my sanity, it would only be for a short period of time. And, you know, I, I’d tell my friends, pull me out if, if you know, if I suddenly lose 30 pounds or gain 30 pounds or something, yank me up. ’cause that that learning is not worth it. But, you know, if you can keep a healthy mental attitude, what could you learn working at, at Elon Musk’s right hand. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, you could learn a ton. And, and that’s a really good point. And any of us can do something for a while for the learning experience. But when you talk about losing the 30 pounds, I worked with a guy, he had left the company, but somebody saw him right about the time he was leaving. It had been an extremely stressful year. And the company that was, you know, a little bit of a toxic environment and a friend of his asked somebody else, does he have cancer? ’cause he had lost so much weight, and he looks so ragged. It’s like, I’m glad you’re gone now. And he, yeah, he looks great now. But that’s just kind of the example where you said the 30 pounds at some point, the health isn’t worth whatever the opportunity is at the end of that rainbow
Jack McCullough:
Health is everything. If you don’t have that, all the money, all the status, uh, whatever it might be, it’s not gonna make a difference. And mental, mental health, it’s getting the attention in the last few years that, that it deserves. Finally. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
No, I’m a hundred percent with you. I still, one of my top fa five favorite podcasts. We did one on mental health and finance. And I’m very proud of that because I think it’s something we need to talk about more openly. Because that’s the only way we’re gonna remove the stigma and help the most people we can, is to be open about it. So, I’m, I’m a hundred percent with you. I think it’s great that it’s much more open to talk about it today than it used to be.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, absolutely. And there shouldn’t be any stigma. And, you know, it’s, as somebody once said, seeking professional help is not a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of strength.
Paul Barnhurst:
So I am a hundred percent with you. I’m a, I’m on the same page with you on that. You know what? It is?
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So, kinda moving forward here, I wanna ask you a question about, uh, the importance of developing a brand. You often talk about how CFOs should develop a brand. Why do you think it’s so important in today’s age that CFOs develop a brand?
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause uh, the People Leadership Council, I, I’ll never be able to prove it, but we were almost certainly the first group to do developing a brand for chief financial officers. Because there was a time that, you know, you, um, just do your job well. That was kind of the philosophy. And CFOs tend to be more humble. And I’m not saying that they’re not a confident, but they’re just humble about their accomplishments compared to, you know, VPs of marketing or VPs of sales and other C-Suite executives. Right. It’s just, it’s kind of the personality type that would follow that line. So it, it does take some encouragement to do it. And, you know, I remind people, you know, Paul, you have a brand do you wanna own it or do you want somebody else to own it? Right?
Paul Barnhurst:
I own my brand.
Jack McCullough:
You can completely ignore your brand. And luckily for you, yours is really good. You’re, you know, you’re well thought of. People think good guy, great interviews, bringing real value to the FP&A community that’s a great brand. But even if you never consciously set out to develop a brand like that, there it is. So, you know, good for you. So if you’re CFO, you know, do you want the world to define your brand? You know, which is c f o, you know, it might be, you know, nerdy accountant, quiet, and, you know, it may not even be true. So own your brand a little bit. And the brand needs to be consistent, but it also needs to have a certain amount of versatility because of the different needs of constituents you serve. You know, whether it be stockholders, uh, you know, having a brand on Wall Street is really good.
Uh, having a brand with your own company’s board of directors, uh, with your boss, with your employees, not only in fp and a and accounting and finance, but throughout the company. And, you know, there are certain consistent things about it, but just make sure that your brand is, you know, suitable for the audience that you’re dealing with at any point in time. Right. So it, it, it just makes so much sense to have a good brand. And you don’t want it to be the quiet accountant who’s backward looking. You know, you, you want the VP of sales and marketing engineering to think of you as a forward-looking strategist.
Paul Barnhurst:
So Yeah. Agree. You don’t wanna be seen as the bean counter or the CF No. Right. Yeah. You wanna be seen as a strategic thinker, Paul. But I loved when you said,
Jack McCullough:
You know, that I probably invented the phrase CF-No
Paul Barnhurst:
Did you tell me that story?
Jack McCullough:
I believe I did. It was, it was my first accounting job. It was about 1984. I was working at a, uh, hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. Won’t say which one, ’cause the guy’s still around. He’s not working.. Anyway, so this, the C F O, he just said no to everything, you know, can, whether accounting position, I remember even like adopting, it was Lotus before Excel. Can we do Lotus? Nope. Doing it by hand. Can we switch brands of coffee? No. No matter what it was. No, no, no. And I started calling him the CFO-No, behind his back <laugh>. And then, uh, one day he called me into the office and he tells me, uh, I understand you’ve been calling me the CF-No, and I’m like 19 years old college student. I think I’m gonna get fired. My parents are gonna kill me. And then he says, I just wanna let you know it’s the finest compliment I’ve ever gotten in my career. Keep up the good work. You’re gonna go far. And I’m just thinking, what the heck is this guy talking about <laugh>? And he, I later found out he thought I was spelling using the word Know and that it was a tribute to his knowledge. It’s when I found out, I was like, whew. Dodged a bullet there, you know? And I Yeah,
Paul Barnhurst:
You got lucky on that one.
Jack McCullough:
Oh boy. Yeah. As you might imagine, I wasn’t in any hurry to correct him. So <laugh>, uh, just let him think that. So
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s hilarious. Yeah. But I’m gonna go back to where you mentioned, you know, like sales and marketing have a brand and you know, they’re kind of big out there. So Steve Young, last year, I was at a CFO conference and he was the keynote speaker, the
Jack McCullough:
Footballer
Paul Barnhurst:
And yeah, the football, the Hall of Famer. And he mentioned he referred to, you know, your wide receiver is your sales guy. They’re the divas, the marketing, right. Your quarterback is the c e o mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he goes, your finance guys, you’re the lineman. You’re in the trenches doing the dirty work. You’re not looking for all the glory, but often you’re critical. If you don’t have a good line, nobody else can be successful. And I really like that kind of analogy. And when you mentioned that, that’s what it made me think of.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, that’s actually, I, I hadn’t thought of it in those terms, but that actually does make a lot of sense. Sure. You know, the, the quarterback and the wide receiver may get the glamor, but, uh, it doesn’t work. You know, I’m, I’m from New England, uh, and I had the privilege of watching what a lot of people consider the greatest quarterback who’s ever done it. Sure. And you know, Belichick notoriously, because everybody’s wanting the shiny object, but he often took offensive linemen in the first round. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, knowing as good as Brady is and, you know, he wasn’t the most athletic guy he ain’t getting it done by himself. He needs, and other than Randy Moss for a couple of years, uh, he didn’t really have elite receivers around him for the most part. He had good receivers. Yeah. But he had an elite offensive line almost always. And a some pretty good tight ends over the years as well. So.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Agreed. And, you know, tight ends are a mix of receiver and lineback and lineman. Yep. So mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I, I, I totally agree with you on that one. That’s a good analogy there too. Good point to make. So, you know, going back to brand, what advice would you offer? What would you say about FP and a professionals in building a brand? Would you think of it the same way as a C F O? Do you think it’s something everybody should do? Or is there a point in the career when you really need to think about it?
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, they need to think about their brand. Um, because the best FP and a professionals, they’re gonna become VPs of FP&A and more and more, uh, they’re gonna be CFOs mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, now is probably the time to start thinking the brand. ’cause it’s still a little bit unconventional for an FP&A person to become a C F O. Although a few years ago, I predicted that it would actually pass controllership for the most common path to being a CFO. It hasn’t yet, but I am, I still think I’m right. It’s just taking longer than I thought. So, um, but, you know, so start thinking about the brand. And again, not unlike CFOs and controllers, the brand isn’t just that you’re really good with numbers, it’s that you’re thoughtful, you’re insightful, you can tell a story with the numbers that’s gonna empower really good decision making. And then, you know, the big part of it within all of finance and accounting is the integrity. You know, and the transparency and communications and that type of thing. So, you know, I would encourage, even at a young age, start thinking about your brand.
Paul Barnhurst:
I mean, I’m a hundred percent with you. I wish I had started thinking about my brand earlier. I’ll say I’ve had more opportunities, more things open to me, jobs off offers business since I started posting on LinkedIn and built a brand, I wouldn’t have started my business without it. Yeah. It, and so I, I’m a big believer like you, that you’re never too early to think about the brand and how you wanna be known. Doesn’t mean you need to get a big, huge following or be a social media star, but you need to think about what you represent and what’s your way to demonstrate that.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, your thing on social media, and, you know I have over 30,000, uh, followers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which, you know, pretty good. But like, I get inquiries from recruiters and people looking to hire someone with my background all the time. And I’m not even that smart.You know, I mean, it’s, it’s just because I have a, a presence and, you know, somewhat of a, a likable personality. And I’m prolific on social media and you know, and that’s kind of my brand, a likable guy who’s smart enough that can get a lot of stuff done and get people to follow him.
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s all you need.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. I’ve made a decent career out of, uh, out of that. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Good. That’s, that’s what we all want to have a career we enjoy. So, going back to how you predicted a few years ago that FP&A would surpass controllership as the C F O, what was your reasoning behind that prediction? What made you think that was the trend? We’re heading toward it? Because I tend to agree with you, I do think we’re seeing more of it. And over time, that will be the dominant area we see people come out of.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. And, you know, each company’s different. So I don’t wanna paint the brush too much. you know, a lot of controllers, they focus on accounting, compliance, cost control, procedures, invaluable.
Paul Barnhurst:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Jack McCullough:
Not strategic.
You know, a lot of control is, again, oversimplification and forgive me, their reporting history and we, you know, reporting what happened. FP&A is, to me, it’s a more strategic role. And, you know, it’s not about compliance and things like that. It’s about the future and building a company and making effective decisions and looking at the possibilities and, and, you know, doing risk management. And with the role, the way the CFO role has changed and has continued to change to going from sort of back office reporting to being future oriented strategic CEOs identify the CFO as their most important partner amongst the C-suite. What does that tell you? Right. Yeah. And I just think for the modern CF,O FP&Ais a better training ground to get those skills. Now I, you know, there’s still, the majority of CFOs did come up through, you know, maybe public accounting, accounting manager control, or CFO where, or something like that. But, you know, chip, chip, chip, more and more FP&A people are getting the opportunity and they’re, you know, knocking the cover off the ball when they do. So once more and more of them get success and people recognize the value they can bring in the top spot, not just an advisor, but a doer, they’re gonna continue to get more.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I, I would agree with that.
Jack McCullough:
Instead of 2023, it’s maybe 2026. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I, I think it’s coming. We’re definitely seeing a continued increase. I know a lot of new CFOs, and most of ’em I know have come through FP&A not through controllership. And they have great strategic thinking. You know, many have done corp dev, maybe investment banking, and then moved over to FP&A. I’ve seen a lot of that where they, you know, they didn’t earn an accounting degree. They never spent time in controllership. Do they understand accounting? Of course. But they’re first and foremost a business partner and a strategic thinker versus a process person. And not to say that all controllers are processed, they’re strategic ones out there and very good ones, but just, it’s a different role.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. I know many controllers who are terrific strategic thinkers, they’re gonna flourish in, in that a role. But they used to be, you know, you talk to a CFO who’s my age and I’m 104. Um, but, you know, chances are, wow, you look
Paul Barnhurst:
Great for, I just wanna
Jack McCullough:
Add, but you know, chances are they came up similarly to me. You know, you, you talk to a former two year old CFO, they came from all sorts of backgrounds. You know former lawyers, uh, I, I know some engineers who became CFOs, and they’re actually really good at it. Because they’re very, they bring an analytical skill that very few financial people have. Yep. FP&A you know, there’s just a lot of ways to get to the role.
Paul Barnhurst:
Agreed. And I thought it was interesting when you mentioned engineer. ’cause some of the best FP&A people I’ve worked with, many of the best have had an engineering background that was, their analytical skills are typically second to none.
Jack McCullough:
Oh, yeah. They’re, you know, there’s, there’s not many who would to become CFOs, you know? Bluntly that’s a choice. Right. I mean, they, they sure mo most of them wouldn’t find it fulfilling. Yeah. Uh, you know, compared to what they’re doing. And Mo most CFOs may not find engineering fulfilling too, but you know, the, the ones who do and develop a passion for it, they can do really well. You know, and Yep. I went to Sloan and, you know, a lot of people who go to Sloan, they start off in engineers, get the MBA work at a consulting firm. So they’ve got, you know, the combination of the scientific analytical mind, the financial skills. Those people are perfect for CFO should they pursue it.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I, I, I would agree with you. That makes a lot of sense to me. So, you know, next question here, as a CFO you know, you’ve done this a few times, I’ve heard rumor has it
Jack McCullough:
Once or twice
Paul Barnhurst:
The, what is the most important thing you look for in your fp and a team in your fp and a department? What do you expect from them?
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. And, um, it’s not just the numbers. At the risk of sounding stupid, I actually want them to have an opinion. Don’t just tell me that gross margin went from 26.2% to, you know, 23.1%, except, however, in Latin America, it actually went up to 28.4%. Wonderful. Thank you. You’re gonna make me, don’t make me ask what happened in Latin America that we might be able to use to repeat in North America and Europe and Asia? You know, why did the company in total go down? You know, what could we have done to prevent it? What can we do now to get us back on track? What, you know, what can Asia do to be more like Latin America?Well Latin American numbers just a freak. You know, if, if you’re just presenting numbers, it, there’s a role for it. But, you know, as you get up the chain, you, you really need to understand the numbers and understand how they impact the business, what they really mean. Okay, what does it mean that this margin fell, or, you know, whatever it might, whatever the K P I that you’re talking about. Okay. Revenue per employee fell. Okay. Is that seasonal? It’s, is it because it’s somewhere in Europe and they shut down? That might be information I’d wanna know, you know, whatever it might be. Right. So, uh, so, you know, have some thoughts, some insight, and an opinion on the data you’re presenting. Just don’t, don’t just present data.
Paul Barnhurst:
I’ve, uh, emphasized that a lot. I said one of the most important things when you’re providing that variance commentary is not what happened. It’s first, why did it happen? And what can we do, you know, the things we can do to correct it. You know, simple framework I like is what, so what now what? And, you know, one of the best compliments I ever got in my career, ’cause I’ve really always tried to focus on that, you know, differing levels of success. But I had a general manager that commented one time, because you don’t help, you don’t just report the P&L, you help shape the P&L. Yeah. It’s like you’re impacting the bottom line in a positive manner. And that’s what FP&A should be doing. If you’re thinking strategically, you understand the business and you’re not just spending all day in a spreadsheet.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. And you know, I, I tell people talking about CFOs, I, I, I said, you know, throughout the history of CFOs, they reported history today, they make history, they make it happen within their company. Can’t do it without good FP&A resources. So, you know its first lieutant, uh, you know, at every great C F O I know has a great controller and a great fp and a person may not be the titles, but you know, the controller to make the ships run on time, the FP&A to help provide meaningful insights so they can make the future happen.
Paul Barnhurst:
A hundred percent agree with you. I’ve seen that at good companies. You need both. Yep. Yep. And then when you have really good ones, the C FO can look really good when you have bad ones, it’s really hard. Even if you’re a great C FO you gotta make some changes.
Jack McCullough:
Yes. Uh, indeed. Yeah. Which, you know, CFOs usually are nice, they don’t like those conversations, but sometimes you’ve gotta do what you’ve gotta do. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
E Exactly. Nobody, I don’t, you know, I, I’m sure there are some people that enjoy those conversations, but most of us don’t. They’re really
Jack McCullough:
Difficult. Yeah. Your former psychopathic boss would enjoy those conversations.
Paul Barnhurst:
I knew you were gonna Yes,
Jack McCullough:
<laugh>. Sorry, I,
Paul Barnhurst:
I was thinking that in my mind, as I said, I’m going, I could think of 15% that would enjoy it.
Jack McCullough:
Well, you know, statistically the percentage of CFOs or psychopaths is 0.000. And I know that because those are my customers and I would never say otherwise.
Paul Barnhurst:
See, they’re not my customers, so I’m gonna go with 12%. I won’t say what it is for FP&A though.
Jack McCullough:
Oh, oh, oh. I’m putting up a disclaimer on my screen. Okay. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I know. I’m kidding. All right. So, you know, this is a question we like to ask people. Can you tell me about a time in your career when you experienced a strategic moment? So, you know, like a strategic insight that later empowered you to drive change within the organization?
Jack McCullough:
Within organization. Yeah. And, um, you know, the expression, some men are meant for greatness, and some men have greatness thrust upon them. I was the latter, but it was actually covid, um, that, you know, it just, it forced us to rethink everything. Because we were, at that point in time, we were just a live events business. Y you know, we had, I forget exactly, but let’s say I had 25 chapters and we had 200 live events per year. And then we also had a member platform, which was a, a Google group. But, and the occasional, that was about it. We, we made our money from that. We had an annual conference that brought 300 e or 400 CFOs in all of a sudden, everything that we did to make money was illegal. And even if it wasn’t you, even if for some you found some loophole, you’re able to hold your conference, no one’s gonna come
Paul Barnhurst:
To it. Yeah, exactly. It could have been legal, but nobody’s coming. Yeah.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. So, you know, we had to rethink everything. You know, we, you know, mastered like a lot of people in my space, you know, embraced the virtual opportunities with the conference. We set up, uh, what we’re calling mastermind groups where like-minded CFOs or whatever get together to discuss issues over Zoom, uh, whatnot, to, you know, that affect their business. We, we made ourselves so valuable to our members that they couldn’t afford to not remain members. They were getting so much value, even without going to the meetings, they couldn’t afford to leave it. You know, I can’t live without these insights. I can’t live without the opportunity to interact with 200 of my peers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, I’m in, it’s the business model. If the CFO is remaining and engaged and happy, the sponsors are going to as well.
Paul Barnhurst:
No, that’s a great point. And I love how you said you were giving ’em so much value they couldn’t leave. Yeah. And that’s when you know you have something that you can just keep scaling and building when you’re not losing any customers. There’s no churn. And they’re happy to pay the price even when you’re charging a premium.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. And it’s crazy. Like, you might be boring to you, but, you know, some of the KPIs in my industry, you know, is, uh, member retention mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, 80% is considered really good in my line of work. If you can keep 80% of your members every year, you’re actually doing pretty well. And we were never at 80%, we were always like, we pretty close. I I think the closest might have been 76. We’re over 90% now. Wow. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s crazy. And, you know, most of our members aren’t even going to the live meetings, which is what, how we defined ourselves. So membership’s never been higher, never more engaged, satisfaction’s unprecedented. And it’s all because, you know, I wouldn’t have done that voluntarily, but I was forced to adapt and have a really smart team and, you know, that the members cared about this organization and wanted to make sure we succeeded. So, and, and so we have.
Paul Barnhurst:
Sometimes those, uh, moments of total change in chaos are when the greatest things come. Like Covid, there are a number of companies that it launched where they’re at today. There’s others it destroyed. But those big events, if you play them right, they can often lead to huge opportunity.
Jack McCullough:
Yes, indeed.
Paul Barnhurst:
So, one thing I wanna ask you about, you know, you have talked about how you love the role of being a mentor. It’s one of the things that’s most dear to your heart and your favorite part of what you do. So, two part question for you here. The first part is, what is it that you love so much about mentoring others? What is it that keeps you doing that and that you enjoy about it?
Jack McCullough:
It’s, um, I really like it. I mean, knowing that you’re helping a young professional along their career path. And, you know, I was fortunate along my career, ’cause I got my first C f O job just at the start of the.com era. And it’s very possible that we’re at the side of something similar with ai. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, we’ll see. But it feels a lot like it. But all of a sudden there was just a demand, a ton of c really good CFOs. And, you know, I might absent that, I might’ve had to, to wait, you know, three to five years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, pay my penance before getting it. Sure. But there was a need. And that’s true for a lot of people my age. We got it, you know, maybe earlier than we were ready for, but you know what, we did a really good job with it.
And so, you know, I, I feel very fortunate, and because of that, I think it’s incumbent upon me to share it with the next generation of CFOs. I can’t control whether or not they have equal or better opportunities in the overall economy. But what I can do is help them prepare for the opportunity when it comes and help them become better at their job. Uh, and the other thing, I actually have a reverse mentorship relationship. A Gen Z. And, you know, I recommend people do that, particularly boomers or almost boomers, you know, for a few reason. One, you know, they’re gonna be your employees, they’re gonna be your customers. And, you know, maybe not at my age, but you know, at, at some point, if you’re in your forties or fifties, there’s a really good chance at some point in your career, you’re the, the Gen Z 22 year old right now, someone like that person is gonna be your boss.
So you really ought to take the time to, you know, get to, you know, get to understand that generation a little bit. And they’re, it’s a good generation. I’m very impressed with it. I know most, most people hate, you know, the generations that follow ’em and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, gen Z, I’ve made it a point to get another, and they’re very impressive. Uh, you know, and you think they’re the most technologically savvy, obviously. It’s a generation, you know, they’ve, um, they’ve really never known, you know, peace and prosperity the way I did. Right. They were, a lot of them were born right around September 11th. So America’s been at war most of their lives. They were, you know, some of them were graduating high school or college during COVID. There was just incredible disruption. Yep. Uh, you know, saw their older brothers, sisters, cousins, neighbors go through and they were denied some of those things for a year or two. And it’s really shaped them. And, you know, they’re gonna be well positioned to run the world when their turn comes and their turn is gonna come pretty soon.
Paul Barnhurst:
I am a hundred percent with you. I know a lot of people like to bash them but I had three people that had done internships and a couple multiple on the show. It was a Gen Z episode, and I was so impressed with the three of ’em I commented we’re in good hands. Yeah. They were very smart. But what I really liked is they had a passion for more than just work. It wanted a purpose to what they were doing. They didn’t wanna deal with bad data. You know, they want things to run smooth, and you could tell they cared, but they cared a lot, a lot more than work. And I’m fine with that. Like, I know some generations it was 60, 70 hours of work was the norm. And, hey, if that’s what you wanna do, great. But if your focus is, Hey, I come put in my 40, 50 hours, I work hard. I do a good job, but I want my life, I’m totally supportive of that. And there’s no reason we shouldn’t be.
Jack McCullough:
There’s so many productivity tools that exist for us, but didn’t do exist for them. And they spent a lifetime, short lifetime. Uh, but, you know, mastering these things, if it gives them a shorter work week, God love them. The only complaint I have about Gen Z, and it’s not really about the generation, but they, their music taste, you can’t listen to it. It’s horrible. So.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right. So what’s your favorite band? I gotta ask, since you brought up music.
Jack McCullough:
Well I’m not gonna say, you asked me my favorite band, which is ACDC, uh, I’m not saying they’re the greatest band. I mean, you know, the, the Beatles are probably the greatest band. Sure. Certainly of my lifetime, if not ever. It’s gonna be tough to, to compete with them. But I am, uh, I’m a head banger, uh, as I know, you know. But when I take the stage at conferences, I, uh, I have two, uh, entrance songs. The first day of the conference, I come to Enter Sandman by Metallica. And then day two, I come to Welcome to The Jungle by Guns N Roses. And then at lunches, uh, at lunch breaks, I play Thunderstruck by ACDC. So
Paul Barnhurst:
I need to come to one of your conferences.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think every financial conference should start with heavy metal music, so <laugh>. But it does, even people who don’t like it, you know, you hear Thunderstruck, you know the song, right?
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. You know, even if you dunno the song and don’t particularly like that type of music, it’s tough to not get caught up in it. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I’m a little more classic rock than the Heavy Metal, but I definitely have heard all the songs and can appreciate them, and I could totally see where that’d be fun. So yeah. What are
Jack McCullough:
You into, do you have a favorite band, Paul?
Paul Barnhurst:
Ooh, do I have a favorite band? I don’t know if I’d say I have a favorite band. It’s pretty eclectic. One of my favorite has always been The Police. I’m a big fan of the police. Okay. I like Sting. And so that’s one that’s up there. You know, I like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, but I then I also like listening to some country and classical. So I have a wide kind of eclectic mix when it comes to music. What advice would you offer to our audience about finding a mentor?
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. You know, one, you know, make sure it’s a person who’s genuinely interested in you and your career path. They’re not doing it just to check the box at work and put it on their resume or something like that. They actually wanna help you succeed and they can understand you. . And then the other is, you know, and this is good advice in life generally, but think a little bit outside the box. And when I, um, in the book Secrets of Rockstar CFOs, I interviewed a very successful CFO and she told me when she was a controller, she sought out a mentor. She was a multi-billion dollar product, uh, products company, consumer product company, excuse me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And she had, her mentor was a VP of sales. Like, what, what, what made you think of that? And she said, you know, she wanted to become a divisional C F O and then maybe in time the company CFO.
And, um, she said, to be honest, I knew the debits and credits and the finance as well as the CFOs did. She felt that what would make her help her get the job earlier and then flourish once she got the opportunity, was to understand the customer and the buying process and the sales process, and understand the entire business, not just the finance and accounting. And that set her up. In fact, uh, this was true a few years ago, but she was with a different company. She was the CFO and that VP of sales was the VP of sales at the same company. So now they were more peers and they had a, a multi-year relationship that was very productive. And she told me like, um, they wanted to make sure that they respected each other’s groups, you know, none of those finance versus sales and marketing wars. And, um, so she said once a month he would actually run the finance and accounting meetings, and she wasn’t allowed to attend. And that same week she would run sales and marketing and he wasn’t allowed to attend. Fascinating. So it, it’s just a way to think outside the box and become a better all around business person.
Paul Barnhurst:
I, I do like the thinking outta the box when you just mentioned sales and marketing. I know, like starting my own business, I’ve learned so much. Uh, a couple years ago I decided to read a book on sales spin selling great book and classic. I just, yeah, it’s exactly, it’s a classic. It was recommended to me by head of sales. I asked him what’s, you know, the book you’d recommend? And that’s the one he recommended.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, no, it makes sense. We’ve come a long way. ’cause that that same guy, the CFO-no Guy, um, I remember, you know, he, when I worked for him, he used to call marketing arts and crafts <laugh>. Uh, which, which was, you know, particularly when you’re 19 is hysterical. And I’m, I’m still chuckling about it now all these years later. And I mean, they called us bean counters, which you could argue is worse, but that’s not really very productive,
Paul Barnhurst:
You know? No, it doesn’t. Nobody
Jack McCullough:
Wins. It wasn’t saying it to be funny. That’s how we viewed marketing. No, no strategic value. They’re just the arts and crafts department. They don’t do anything legit. And you know, I, it it just like you, uh, I’ve seen great marketing people really take a company to the next level. So
Paul Barnhurst:
No doubt marketing works. I mean, the, the evidence is overwhelming that marketing works. Yeah. And good marketing can make a huge difference in a company. You want science, it’s a lot more than just the arts and crafts, as you said. I always tease the marketing students in my MBA program and I’ve really come to appreciate ’em since. But we’d always say, you know, all the marketing people are the ones who just can’t handle the math <laugh>. Right. You know, similar idea from
Jack McCullough:
That. Well, you know, there are stereotypes. Occasionally, some stereotypes end up being true, but, uh,
Paul Barnhurst:
Sure. And there, there’s some truth to some of ’em. But, you know, just kind of would always, and particularly ’cause one of my friends, we’ve been good friends now we’ve worked together at a company. When he was in grad school, he came to me for statistics tutoring, and he went into marketing. So I always kind of tease him about that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s like, yeah, you went into marketing because you couldn’t handle the math.
Jack McCullough:
You know, the best marketing people do have an analytical mind. And, you know, I have trouble convincing people of this. I don’t think I’ll have trouble convincing you of this, but the best finance people are creative. Mm-hmm. And, you know, there was a day you’d tell people, I want a CFO or controller who’s creative. I just mean I want ’em to be able to solve a problem. And that analysis says things. But you know, people would say, geez, a creative accountant, that sounds like a crook. Why? Why does being creative make you unethical? If you’re a finance person, why, why do you even go there? But I will tell you a lot of people did back in the day, and perhaps still do, I don’t know. So
Paul Barnhurst:
One of up
Jack McCullough:
Having those conversations.
Paul Barnhurst:
So one of my favorite jokes, I say jokingly and gets me trouble, like, what’s the difference between an accountant and an FP&A professional, when an accountant gets creative, they go to jail. When an fp a professional gets creative, they get promoted
Jack McCullough:
<laugh>. That is, uh, probably more true than, uh, than we would hope. So.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. So yeah, that’s kind of the, what I joke about when people are explaining it on LinkedIn. I always add that as my kind of my contribution. And some people like it. Some I can tell. Sometimes they’re like, Hey, that’s not really fair. I’m like, eh, you know, gotta have a little fun in life.
Jack McCullough:
Absolutely. So
Paul Barnhurst:
We have this section we like to call rapid fire questions. Okay. I have just a couple here for you. You get about 30 seconds for each question, and we’ll just go through them here quickly. So first one, what is something interesting about you? Not many people know?
Jack McCullough:
I would normally say headbanger, but we covered that earlier. Um, okay. I was adopted as a baby and my biological parents got married, but not to each other. And the result of that is I have two brothers named Jack.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right, there you go. I like it.
Jack McCullough:
A bit of a fun fact. But yeah, you, do you remember the New Heart Show? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I’m Larry. This is my brother Darrell. This is my other brother, Darrell .
Paul Barnhurst:
There you go. You got Jack. I
Jack McCullough:
Feel kinda like that. Yeah. I have two brothers with the same name as me, which they’re not related to each other. One’s my father’s son, the other’s, my mother’s son. Yeah. But it freaks out my siblings who now have, you know, two of us in their life. So I’ve gotten to know my family as an adult. So
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s, that is definitely unique. Appreciate you sharing that one. Sure. So the next one is, if you could meet one person in the world, dead or alive, who would you meet and why?
Jack McCullough:
Can I pick my mom?
Paul Barnhurst:
Of course.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. I, I, it would be her. I just, um, she was a, a wonderful mother. A wonderful woman. Uh, she died, uh, about 20 years ago. It’ll be 20 years this November, actually. And, you know, I’m grateful for the years I had with her, but I miss her every single day and I love to chat with her,
Paul Barnhurst:
I, I could totally see why you’d pick that one. It’d be wonderful to be able to chat with the woman that had a huge impact on your life again. And it was a very close friend. I could totally see why you’d pick that one. So, next one, what is the worst manual process you’ve ever experienced?
Jack McCullough:
The worst in, in anything, huh?
Paul Barnhurst:
It can be in anything. It can be work related, it could be non, but just over your, you know, over your life career. What’s kinda the worst you’ve seen?
Jack McCullough:
I was a pencil armed high school graduate the summer after with, with nine inch biceps. And my dad wanted me to not have any good ideas of, of, um, he wanted me to go to college. And so I ended up working for him just so he could make me miserable. And I, I didn’t understand that was his master plan at the time. ’cause he was actually paying pretty good money. I operated a jackhammer, I don’t know if you’ve ever done that. I operated, I have
Paul Barnhurst:
Operated a jackhammer. Yes. I’ve broke
Jack McCullough:
Up some cement first. So you do that and you know, you’re, I was a small guy. Yeah. I felt it, you know, for days afterwards, you know, it’s, um, it just screws up your body. It was miserable. And I’m not even sure what exactly I was doing. I was breaking stuff. So that was the worst manual process I ever had to deal with. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I only had to deal with that a little, but I could see that doing that all summer. My experience is nothing like that. Yeah. It might’ve been, you know, 20 minutes somewhere. I mostly, it was a, I’ve done sledgehammer, cement. Yeah. Little bit of a jackhammer, but not much.
Jack McCullough:
If you’re thinking more along the lines of business. Early in my career, uh, I was very frustrated ’cause, you know, getting a purchase of getting a purchase order approved and then the invoice paid, I counted it, it was like 26 different touch points along the way, you know, from initiating the PO all the way, everything to approve the PO place the order, and then get the check cut. We actually counted. It’s like, you know, the CEO’s touching this thing four times, it’s, it’s, yeah. different world. You, you, yes. You know, you, you have 25 year olds listening to this and they think I’m making it up.
Paul Barnhurst:
I can believe you. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I could see where 25 year olds would believe you’re making it up to. So here’s, here’s an interesting one for you. What is the last thing thing, the last thing you researched on the internet about how, about something to do with finance?
Jack McCullough:
Hmm. Um, something to do with finance. Sort of, I actually looked up who are the people on social media with CFO expertise, whom I should follow. And, um, and I, I looked that up and I was actually delighted. I myself made the list, which I wasn’t thinking, which was kind of funny ’cause I was like third on the list. And fourth was McKinsey, like, not a person from McKinsey, but the entire firm. . I’m like, on what planet am I ranked head of McKinsey for, you know, thought leadership. Right. ,
Paul Barnhurst:
I could see that going on your website. If you need a global thought leader ranked higher than McKinsey come to Jack, that’s stuff put out there.
Jack McCullough:
Absolutely. But, you know, I’m often, um, you know, trying to make sure it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of data analysis type of stuff, you know, it’s like I, um, I’ll share like a budget and you know, like I mentioned the KPIs about remember turnover and stuff like that. And the report’s a little bit complex because it’s, I have 30 chapters and, you know, there are a lot of variables andI’ll just share the data and say, what can it, you know, I’ve literally, it’s, it’s funny, it talks back and, um, it’s almost like it’s a human. And I said, you know, what insight can you share that I may not be able to see for yourself? And, you know, it responds back in a very casual, friendly way. And it said, you know, these, uh, perhaps you figured this out on your own, but these are three things that are a little bit beneath the surface. Some pretty cool insight actually. And, and it was right. I didn’t, um, didn’t notice it on my own.
Paul Barnhurst:
It’s amazing what we can do today with technology. It’s, we’re watching a revolution before. Eyes, like you mentioned, reminds you of the.com era. It’ll be interesting to Yeah. See if it ends the same way.
Jack McCullough:
A lot of people with the vision and the boldness and the guts are gonna get very rich. Uh, others won’t, you know, there’s gonna be bad betts made ’cause there always are, but, uh mm-hmm. It’s a, you know, it might be a once in a lifetime opportunity for people.
Paul Barnhurst:
So, uh, no, I agree there, there’s gonna be the next set of billionaires coming out of the next couple years for sure.
Jack McCullough:
Yep. To which I say hire me. I’m nice
Paul Barnhurst:
<laugh>. I’ll keep that in mind when I meet these AI guy. Didn’t
Jack McCullough:
I earlier admit that I wasn’t all that bright? So ignore that part. I was kidding on that part. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
All right. I will tell him he’s nice, he’s bright and he’s a cfK-n-o-w.
Jack McCullough:
There you go. I like it. If that doesn’t get me hired, I don’t know what will. So
Paul Barnhurst:
I could think of a few things, but we’ll leave that for another episode. Yeah, my
Jack McCullough:
Good luck. My charm.
Paul Barnhurst:
Bobblehead.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
All those things. Alright, so you had mentioned you’re not a big Excel user, so you get to get a pass on that question. Okay. So we’re gonna move on kind of the wrap up section. I just have two or three more questions here and we’ll be done. What do you see as the most critical skills for CFOs today?
Jack McCullough:
It might surprise you. Empathy and communications. It’s a communications job now. You know, you give me somebody who is empathetic, a good listener, a good communicator, and has only pretty good accounting, financial, analytical skills versus somebody who’s great on the financial analytical side and, you know, isn’t very good at communicating and isn’t empathetic. I’m gonna take the former seven days a week and twice on Sunday, as my parents used to say. So you know, I think those are the big skills. Storytelling is another way to put it. You know, again, you’re not just presenting data and numbers, you’re telling the story behind the numbers in a way that’s meaningful both to financial people and to non-financial people. You ever read Warren Buffett’s annual letter to shareholders?
Paul Barnhurst:
I’ve read, yes, I’ve read some of them.
Jack McCullough:
He’s no better a writer than you and I. But it’s brilliant. You know, it’s so, you know, he’s candid. He’s thoughtful, he tells the truth. He keeps it simple. Uh, you know, you, your grandmother who invests in Berkshire Hathaway and just wants to get, you know, the warm fuzzies that the money’s going well, she’s gonna read that. Feel good about it. The most analytical analyst on Wall Street is gonna read it and get, you know, have the same reaction. He’s the best. Uh, you’re not gonna be able to, you know, there’s a reason he’s Warren Buffett and we’re not, but he’s definitely someone you can emulate. So if you’re playing basketball, watch Michael Jordan, tennis, Serena Williams, financial communications, Buffet’s your man,
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, there. Yeah. His, uh, the things, the way he says things enable to tell a story. He’s fabulous. Him and Charlie Munger, when they’re at the event together, just play off each other so well. Yeah. Yeah. You can see he knows how to speak to audiences. He knows how to make them laugh, tell a story. And so important. You know, this last week we were, uh, me and my partner were in, uh, Nashville at a Fortune 100 company’s headquarters talking about storytelling and business partnering and the importance of it. And it was really good to see these people really starting to understand how important that is beyond just the analytical skills to their career.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s the name of the game. ’cause you know, there’s technologies and highly skilled, highly trained people that can help you with the analytical stuff. If you can’t communicate that story, guess what? There’s a lot of people that are willing to give it a try. So,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yes. One of the, uh, lessons I learned the most in my career is I had a disaster where I did a really bad job at telling the story and I asked my boss, I’m like, what went wrong here? And he looked at me, he goes, your analysis was brilliant. Your presentation lacked.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. And you need both, right? You, you can’t be all pizazz and style, but you, you know, you can’t be boring either. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And so that really hit home for me. I really learned a lot from that. And it was just a reminder of the importance of that presentation, the storytelling. Yeah.
Jack McCullough:
And that’s truthfully part of the reason I come to stage to welcome to the jungle. I’ve got their attention instantly, right? Yep. If I just walked up on stage and introduced myself, you know, maybe, maybe not right, but welcome to the jungle. All of a sudden I’ve got a giant stage presence. Every single person is looking at me. Uh, you know, I can let my personality shine ’cause it gives me confidence all of a sudden.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, no, it’s a great point. Everybody’s kind of heart rate’s up, they’re excited, you’ve got their attention and then you just need to deliver versus I come up there and I have to grab everybody’s attention. You’ve grabbed it with what you’ve done before you start speaking.
Jack McCullough:
Yep. Absolutely. So
Paul Barnhurst:
Great one. I often now think of what my song’s gonna be. Maybe I’ll have to write about that. Alright, so just two questions left. First one is, if someone in our audience is listening who wants to become a CFO, what’s the advice you’re going to give them?
Jack McCullough:
There’s a lot, but if, if I can only give one, it would be understand the business, um, beyond just the numbers two. And did you, did you see the movie, the Intern?
Paul Barnhurst:
I know what movie you’re talking, but I haven’t seen it.
Jack McCullough:
Okay. Quick overview. She was an entrepreneur. She started and remained the president of her own company, which sold clothing online. Um, and the opening scene in the movie where you didn’t know who is who Anne Hathaway was the actor. Um, but she was actually on, she started out her first scene, she was on customer support and they had shipped wedding, uh, like bridesmaids dresses or something that was sent to the wrong address. And she was talking to the customers and, you know, how was the delivery other than it was a couple of hours late, you know, was it good? What was your experience? Why’d you buy it? Blah, blah, blah. It turned out she was the CEO of the company, but Ann got that by shadowing a real world executive who is thought to be the CEO of Spanx. But, you know, she never confirmed.
She, she shadowed a number of them, but you know, the point is, you are gonna be a lot better at your job, the more you know about the business. And, you know, if you live in the type of business where you can spend, you know, a few hours a week on custom support going on sales calls, talking to the people who actually buy and use your products, you’ll be much more effective in your role. It’s hard to do, you know, CFOs a lot of hours a week, but a lot of them that I know, they go on sales calls and by the way, they’re pretty good at it too. So that would be my main one, get a broader skillset than finance and accounting.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. Appreciate that. And I, I agree with you there. I think that’s a great one to have. So, last question. If someone wants to get ahold of you, what’s the best way to do that?
Jack McCullough:
Um, the easiest way is to text me. Um, and, uh, my text, my phone number is (617) 678-0957. You follow me on LinkedIn, but LinkedIn actually recently, they have a limit of 30,000 connections. And, um, I am always at that when I get, you know, I’m in a member organization, so I have to connect with my members if they ask. Right. Of course. I mean, I, I want to, but even if I did not have to, um, so, you know, I, I’m a little selective on connecting, but you know, we can follow. Sure. I follow everybody that follows me. The only difference is you can’t see are non shared connections. I, that’s the only difference I’ve ever figured out. So, and it’s Jack McCullough, CFO on LinkedIn. Okay. You can follow me on Twitter, but it’s useless. I haven’t posted rally since Breaking Bad went off the air.
Paul Barnhurst:
Well, if it comes back on, I’ll expect a post.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah. <laugh>. There you go. So <laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right. Well thank you so much for joining us, Jack. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you and hope you have a great weekend and can’t wait to share this episode with our audience.
Jack McCullough:
Yeah, thanks. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate your time and, uh, it was a lot of fun. Let’s do it again, Paul.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right, sounds good. Thanks Jack.
.
